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1988.02.23_TC_Minutes_Workshop TRANSCRIPT OF PORTION OF WORKSHOP MEETING OF 2/23/88 RE CONCORDIA INVESTMENTS, INC. Mayo r: The next item is a request for site plan approval of Lot 101 East, Concordia Investments. Ellen Venzer: Good Afternoon Mayor and Commissioners. Mayor, I'm Ellen Venzer, representing Cohen and Silver. We're here today, because as you all know we have received approval from the Planning Board and today we're looking to you for your approval for this .project. I guess the best way to approach this is, are there any questions? Are there any questions that you all might have with regard to this project that we can answer for you at this time or any comments that we might be able to discuss with you at this time. Mayor: Does the Commission want a presentation by Mr. Colman with regard to the plans since I see he has brought his architect and all his entourage? Basso: Make your .presentation. Venzer: Okay, very well, • Colman: With me here today, my name is Philip Colman for Concordia Investmen ts. With us here today we have Paul Twitty and Steve Piazzo from the firm of Schwab and Twitty, Architects, Mike Everett, Project Manager, Mike Redd and Scott Brown from the firm of TeamPlan, who are landscape architects, Mr. Chane of Chane, Inc. engineers, and Michael Walther, a marine engineer. I think that's our crew here. I guess we'll start off with Paul Twitty. (NOTE: PLANS WERE THEN ARRANGED MORE TO THE MIDDLE OF THE CHAMBER) Twitty: For the record, my name is Paul Twitty with Schwab and Twitty, architects representing the presentation for Villa Mare located on the east side of U. S. of .Highway AlA. First I would like to draw your attention to the architectural prospective located on my left which is the view taken from the AlA elevation looking towards the ocean. What you see from that point is the main building located here in white, the entrance drive up into the outside parking deck area and then also the entrance/exit into the basement perking level. • Now you'll notice that the building is a nine story building plus a basement level which I will go through in just a moment but just to orient yourself the dune line is at this -2- ` ~ r point. The brown that you see on either sidg6f the • building is a recreational deck, pool facility, dune overwalk and the beach area and the Atlantic Ocean at this point and AlA here. Someone approaching the building, a guest, would come up this ramp here and then have a turn circle underneath at this portion of the building, a drop off and then back out. Also this circle will accomodate emergency vehicles and firefighting equipment with the appropriate radius at that point. One .point I might would mention regarding this site plan which the landscaping people will get into in a little more detail is in this area which you can see in the rendering is an oriental style landscaping motiff or focal point. As ~o u recall we are echoing similar to the building which is going to be directly across the street on the west side of the road.. Proceeing on with the basement level which you see here, entrance and exit at this point and then the entire level being donated to parking, some tenant storage and then the elevator service up through the building. The next floor up would be what we call theguest level, or the entrance/guest level, with the covered drop off which I had indicatec~6n the site plan and .the turn circle area which leads back down the ramp. This particular floor is primarily a public amenities floor with the various social • amenities, cabanas and the pool deck area with the main entrance lobby located off of the vehicular drop off area. Basso: Excuse me, whe re are the cabanas going to be located? Twitty: Under the main tower portion along this side of the building delineated in this area here immediately adjacent and off of the pool deck area. Scholz: Those cabanas are to be purchased in addition to the apartments? Twitty: That is my understanding, this would be a purchase in addition to the apartment I guess on a first come first served basis. The next level up is still a non-typical apartment floor but it is thirst apartment .level that we have. The cut out that you see here is directly above the -turn circle drop off and the reason we have this additional height is as I mentioned to accomodate fire trucks and emergency vehicles with the appropriate head- room. I think architecturally, and I think I mentioned this in the previous presentation regarding the west building, is that we do have a rather curvelinear solution • thats going to be echoed by the color and .theme of the building to the west side so that the twq will have a compatibility to each other. Also you will notice in brown, 3 is a completely circulating balcony that will be around the building which also is a functional plus for the apartments and also an aesthetic amenity as far as the overall building is concerned. Now we come to the first typical apartment level, or typical apartment floor where we have four apart- ments per floor, one for each corner of the building, center core with the elevators and vertical circulation, again, the balcony wrapping around the building. The ~artments are luxury in nature and compatible with the units in the west building and certainly in keeping with the level of apartments that Mr. Colman has already accomplished in the Town. Basso: What is the square footage of each apartment? Twitty: Well we have several square footages and they're indicated on the plan, the A units which are on the ocean have 2,596 square foot of air conditioned space with approximately 700 square feet of terrace and then the B units which are on theAlA side of the building have a little over 2,500 square feet of space with approximately 670 square feet of private terrace area. Briefly echoing the architecture that you see in the rendering, this would be the elevation facing • AlA or elevation that you would see driving past with the ramp area as I mentioned here on the south side leading up to the guest drop off area and then we also have in this area to the north the entrance and exit tgkhe basement parking facility. Depicted here in the foreground which will be on a gradual ramp up concealing the basement level will be this oriental style landscaping theme similar to the location that we had on the project, or the building on the west portion of the property west of AlA. Now this would be either a north or south elevation depicting the dune line to your left would be the Atlantic Ocean, AlA here, this would be the basement parkinng level and then depicting the ramp coming up to the drop off. This pat ion that you see here, the cut out in the building is the main entrance area drop off with the raised overhead area at this point. Very briefly, that is a quick walk through of the project and we have 32 apartments in this building that has, as I mentioned nine stories and a basement. I think at this time it would be appropriate to have the landscaping architect address their design in order to have a feeling of the overall approach to the building and I think it's important to note that the architecture as we have done on the west building, of the building and the architecture of the surrou nding site is intergrated into a total cohesive design. Redd: Thank you Paul, for the record my name is Michael Redd and I am President of Teamplan Inc. and we are performing the lan dscape architecture services for Mr. Coleman's project. If I might, I would like to walk you from the general into l 4 the particular. As you know, it's our goal to represent this in harmony and visually conducive to what's happening on the west side also. There are several key points that I would like to stress, the first being that the theme of this project from a landscaping prospective, from a landscaping architectural prospective is one of a strong Japanese flavor. For those of you .who may not be familiar with the Japanese method, it's much more meant to create a very strong sense of mood, serenety and so forth and to that .end a great deal of use is put to the, some of the subtleties of the design such as the use of boulders and gr~ t rock areas and so forth. Also, picturesque plants with alot of character. A plant would be chosen in the field and brought to this project, for instance, perhaps with a very gnarled base or trunk, very scenic or very unique appearance of its branching structure. As far as the plant material itself, there is nothing unusual about those. By tying the two sides together visually, if you like it will meet as a common element and will help the streetscape of your town here somewhat. We used many of the large existing trees from the westside, those that couldn't be saved from the westside are intended to be • brought over and utilized on the east side. It may not, seem th at important but it really becomes extremely important from a microclimate standpoint. Oftentimes you`ll see first line good material used in the Town and it's right on the edge of the ocean and people go in and purchase this material from let's say west of town and they bring it in and what's supposed to grow just can't grow or it's stunted for a couple of years until it gets it's feet acclamated. By utilizing plant material that has already been in the microclimate here, what we do is get a plat that has already accomodated itself to this particular microenvironment. We are utilizing water features on both sides of the project and on this~ide the water feature is much more kinetic, much mo re active in that we have slot of flowing and splashing, crashing, and so forth. It is to create a little bit of visual excitement and also to set the scene for/~he arrival into the architecture. Some of the supporting elements that you'll use in a Japanese setting like this are stone lanterns, perhaps boulders, a dry riverbed appearance through the use of various size of gravel, racksanders. Laid we would walk from the general to the par- ticular and of course one of the key areas is right here, it's going to become part of the streetscape, if you will, of your • very nice town here and we feel it's going to be a real addition and it`s the detail on the right that you can see. As I mentioned, the water is much more active, there's a foot- bridge, these represent gravel sand areas where we're using extensive Xeriscape or low water intensity us~~age in the area. We have a strong buffer planting on either side of the ,project and throughout in the front, a very nice decorative stone 5 . ~ arrival point. In general, unless you have questions, ,. t_~ that's the end of our presentation. Mayor: Do the Commissioners have any comments at this point, • or any questions? Commissioner Scholz? Scholz: I would just like a reiteration of what this gentleman just said on $ie plantings, that they are compatible with our Xeriscape plan. Venzer: Yes sir, I would like to have our expert come back up and explain it a little bit further, if you have any questions, particularly.. Redd: Xeriscape, of course, what we've done is utilize plants which will require some of the least amour of watering . That has always been part and parcel of the Japanese approach to landscape architecture anyway. Some of the plants that we are utilizing, if you just .want to give it a broad stroke as to what plants are related to the Xeriscape there are a large measure of some of your natives. They can make do or pull in the horns a little bit when the dry season comes but they don't completely defoiliate. They're able to withstand periods of droughtt and as a result, of course, we are all concerned with the groundwater levels, intrusions, so applied over a broad base which the towns and villages in the area .are doing now, it can have a real • impact. Scholz: One other question, these pools of water reflected in your sketches here. I think the answer is obvious but I just want to make sure that we are all on the same wave length. All these pools are recirculating water, correct? Redd: 100% correct, right. There will be a very little bit of evapotranspiration naturally, but that is so minimal,. its not just let it run its course and discharge, it's recirculating. Blosser: Well... Mayor: Excuse me, let me just ask if he's finished. Are you finished. Scholz: Yes. Mayor: Thank you, Vice Mayor Blosser? Blosser: My question is in the Japanese landscaping motiff, how much green soil do you have or probdly the reverse would be simpler to ask. What is your percentage of rock or dry bed that you have that's covered land. Redd: I don't really know, I couldn't calculate that off-hand. ~, 6 . Brown: We may have those figures. I don't have an exact per- centage, but as you can see on this sketch of the front area, we are using some of the dry river beds. We do have an extensive green space area. We have limited some of the landscaping area with some of the dry river beds. Blosser: Obviously my question is directed towards water run-off. Redd: Yes, these are pervious areas, fully pervious~~which is what I believe you are directing your question to. Blosser: Thank you. Mayor: Commissioner Basso? Basso: No questions. Mayor: Any other questions? Blosser: Well we're just discussing this and they haven't fin ished. Scholz: I have one question that's digressing a little. From what we've just discussed here, and maybe it will come up later. The one thing that concerns me, Mr. Colman, is th at I remember several meetings ago that you made the statement that both of these buildings will be erected approximately the same time. Venzer: That is correct sir. Colman: That's absolutely correct and there are some very valid reasons for that, both from the point of view of the Town, because it means that if you build one building at a time, in fact what you're ending up with is a four year project instead of a two year project. Scholz: The only reason, and I agree, is that and I know it's more economical obviously. The reason I bring it up is, the thing that concerns me is the congestion, traffic, etc. Colman: We don't envision, and I can state that catagorically, we don't envision any greater problem with the two buildings than you would normally have with the one. It's a matter of scheduling and timing and that could .easily be attended to; I think we know and we have proven that in the past, I think we know what we're doing. A major reason from our point of view for building two buildings together and I have never done it any other way, particularly since these buildings are. opposite each other is that from a 7 marketing point of view,~ou're creating a herendous problem if you build one building at a time because nobody wants to move into a building knowing full well that another building is going to be started the moment they move in which is right opposite them when they have to go through that experience so from a marketing point of view I can state catagorically that there is no way I would build one building a t a time. I just wouldn't cio it. It wouldn't make any sense at all. I think it's good from the point of view of the Town and I think it's good from the point of view of the neighbors becuase they wouldn't want to have construction going on for four years if they could have it going on for two years. Mayor: ~- Mr. ~~t~~S~~`.:I'''~Yif,~E,,; cou],.c~,, $.,-~ ~lta~t`f,:, _ from you. The classification of The property is RMH correct? • Sutherland: That is correct. Mayor: And the~builr3ing height, 80 feet? Sutherland: That is correct. Mayor: Do we have any statistical information regarding lot coverage of the building? Sutherland; Yes we do, it doesn't exceed 50%. 50% would be the maximum amount of building. Mayor: This is listed in detail someplace in the records. Colman: May I interject here for a moment. The tower lot coverage which is the meaningful figure incidentally, and it's the one that would provide and show the greatest amount of open air, space, the tower coverage is 18.3/. Mayor: What about the western set back, it is in place as prescribed by code. Sutherland: The western set back is correct. Mayor: What a~th~e` r,`..~+~t,:ba~ks ~ i~h~r~ it .exttds . the_ ~t~~=~~ans trt~c~~i#,~t ~e . Sutherland: The building is west of the Coastal Construction Control Line. In the discussion relevant to the Planning Board and the points brought forward by the 8 n LJ Planning Board they stated, and going by building procedure, generally, a cantilevered balcony is handled similarly to an overhang on a roof, whatever, it is not supported vertically and in discussion with the Planning Board, they stated if the Departire nt of Natural Resources have no objection to the cantilevered balconies being over the Construction Control Line, that they would not have any objections also. We have had letters, a letter from the DNR stating they have no objection to the cantilivered balconies being over the Coastal Construction Control Line. Mayor: Would you read the section of the code thatpertains to this. Sutherland: I don't quite. follow. ~,. ~; k~ U Mayor: Would you please put into the record the statement in the code as it is written that .pertains. to buildings and setback on the coastal line, and if you don't want to read it out of your green book, would you like to read it out of one of the code books. Friedman: Would you like to look at this book, Bruce, the Code of Ordinances? Sutherland: Sure. Okay. Ocean setbacks, state coastal construction line, Section 5.1(4) "Said wall shall be located west o~E the state coastal construction control line." Is that the area you're reiFerring to. Mayor; Protection of the ocean ridge, Section 5.14, is not that the Section that requires, with regard to the setback aid with regards to the... Blosser: You're reading point 5 are you Bruce, is that what you're reading? Sutherland: The ocean setback lin~hall meet the state coastal construction control line. I have been in correspondence with the people that legislate this line, the DNR,and they find it acceptable. Mayor: What about on Page 30-30, section c, would you lik~to read that one? Sutherland:"The foundation for said building shall not be commenced f ,~ 9 • until a building permit has been issued and the has been completed, if planned, and no part of building shall extend above or easterly of the Mayor: Thank you. seawall the completed- seawall". Sutherland: That was the part you were looking for "and no part of the completed building°. Yes, the cantilevered balcony is technically a part, I'm gc~g by normal construction... Mayor: I'm just wanting the record to show these items are being not overlooked. Colman: Excuse me, I might mention, this was raised I thought fully, at the Planning Board and we recognized the point that you are making Mayor. It certainly extends beyond the Coastal Construction Control Line and .that was discussed at that meeting and the members of the Planning E3oard had no objection to it for the record, they had no objection to it conditional on the DNR having no objection and since the DNR formally did not object, the Planning Board approved it and incidentally, the average extension beyond the • Coastal Construction Control Line is two feet. Mayor: Mr. Sutherland, I have another statement I'd like you to acknowledge, please. You said earlier that this is RMH zoning and we're trying to address, now, we've done the west side which you've said meets the requirements and we've just discussed tha east side. Waald y.au pease give me .what is ~d~ ,y-ard etback. Would you 'read that from the code. Sutherland: Of course now we're dealing with Supplement No. 38 which is the current supplement. "Garage structures and other portions of the principal structures less than twenty-five feet in height shall meet two story yard setback requirements". Two s:tox'~ is 20' . Mayor: Thank you. Manager: I would- like, Bruce, if you would, ,put one more section into the record which is under Chapter 21, with particular emphasis on the last part of this section under Seawalls, Bulkheads and Retaining Walls. • Sutherland: This goPS to Chapter 21-4, basically I'll get down to the nitty gritty here, "The Town Commission, upon advice of the Planning Board may authorize an adjustment of the 10 • wall to meet existing conditions, but in no event shall any part of the building extend east of the state coastal construction control line". Mayor; Okay, thank you. I think all of these situations need to be addressed or at least looked into, if you'd like to make comment at this time, Mr. Colman, surely. Colman: On the question of the side yard, you just raised that question, I want to make the following point, which I made at the Planning Boa rd meeting and t thought most of you were aware of that. At the Planning Board I pointed out that the code that you referred to, with 20' side setbacks does not apply in this situation at all. We are set back, and I'm talking at the ground level, not basement, we are set back at the ground level, and this is the level that co ants, 50'. We're not set back 12' or 17' or 20', we are set back 50' and therefore the particular regulation that you referred to doe not apply. • Mayor: I would say that`s a difference of opinion because if we were to hold to my interpretation of that then we could plant a tree right adjacent to that building because we would be in an appropriate side yard situation, Unfortunately, that would either be in your swimming pool= or it would be in your parking garage and I don't really ;z' think, I would disagree with it, the interpretation you'v1§ presented. Colman: I don't know what side yard have to do with green space. Mayor: Well, I'm trying to describe what the side yard, as I see it. Any comments from the rest of the commission or any questions at this time that need answering. Blosser: No I had raised the question on side set backs and discussed it at the last meeting when I objected to, although, obvisbtiily, 101 west is not under discussion as pointed out at the lase: meeting that 101 eastwas not under discussion then, but the same problem on side set backs existed to a varying degree. Mayor: Comments? Venzer: Yes, I have a couple of comments, if you'll bear with me, I think you'll be able to see where we're coming frown in 11 terms of the side yard. From an April 30 Meeting in 1985, Mayor, you said that the purpose of the side yards, or the side setbacks was to provide open space in the front, the side or the rear of the building. We're set back 50'. Our ground is the natural grade of the dune, okay, that is what our ground is, so if you're' taking it from the natural grade of the dune, we are far in excess of the ordinance requirements, we're two times in excess of the ordinance requirements.. The ordinance in our opinion, doesn't apply here simply because we have met the requirements if you are going to go by what the actual ground is and ours is the natural. grade of the dune. Now, if you want to discuss somethings. else, if you want to, I'm not sure how 2 can help you on this or how we can do this. Blosser: You're saying your ground floor is at dune level, is that what you're saying in essence? venter: I'm saying in essence that the definition of our ground,; is the natural grade of the dune and I will point you to the appropriate sections of your zoning book.. Blosser: May we see the elevatia-i that was shown, maybe that would be a little better than landscaping at the momenta Twitty: Excuse me, what representation did you want? Blosser; That one, because what we're discussing is elevation. That is the back elevation of your building. AlA is the front of your building. Colman: AlA is the street. The front elevation of the building,' the elevation of the building in the frontlfaces the street the street is not the front of the building. Blosser: Excuse me, yes it is sir, would you like to read the code. The front faces the street. I would be glad to correct myself if I am wrong but T will look it up. *. Mayor: Could we have one of the elevations showing the north property line which is sort of like a cross section, yes, thank you. I think that is under definitions, is it not. . Blosser: I can't find it but I know it's there. Mayor: Well, this is a workshop so it's one of the items that we can address if it isn't able to be found, but I want to establish all of the things that we want to look into because it is a workshop and we need to have a chance to • U 12 look into these things. Venzer: Mayor, I'd like to say that as much as we can get done today, I think we would like to. I think it would be in the best interest of the Town and Mr. Colman if we address the things we can today. Mayor: I am not trying to squash that, that is not my intention here... My intention is to raise all issues as possible today, so that whatever they are, they are exposed for consideration and. so that both parties do know as much as possible. Venzer: All I'm suggesting is that we'd like to be able to come to terms as much as we can today. Blosser: Under 5.10 of the code, page 30-24, Lot frontage, "The front.. of a lot shall be construed to be the portion nearest the street". Colman: I don't understand the point you're making Vice Mayor. Blosser: Well, I think, the front of the building has a different elevation requirement than the frontage on the ocean side, the back when you're building something. Venzer: Anything else, Mayor and Commissioners? Mayor: I think some of the questions with regard to the zoning issues are going to be things that we are going to have ~o resolve, certainly, or at least for some of the Commissioners. Would you detail for me, if you can, or maybe one of your associates, to me, that drawing right there, answers my consideration of the side setbacks and the}~uilding proper. There are definitions in our code which describe the build- ing and any part thereof which ,you can look up and read and interpret for yourself just as we will be doing, rather than get into it, one on one right now. Twitty: Do you wish for me to address anything on this graphic representation. Mayor: No, I would just like, if you can, that number on the bottom, I can't quite see the number from here. Twitty: Sheet 6. Mayor: Thank you. So that would be the one if anybody wants to look at it. Blosser: May I ask a question. What is the floor elevation of your garage? 13 • Twitty: I don't have that represented on this particular graphic, but to the best of my recollection, it is 6" above the crown of the road but I would have to confirm that. Blosser: And the crown of the road is probably 7.5. Twitty: 7.6. Blosser: So you're certainly over sea level. Twitty: Yes. Blosser: Thank yo u. Mayor: That would make it necessary for flood insurance. Could we go to a, your first, I guess your first site plan, the very first sheet, I think, yeu. You, okay, what is, I don't have it on my plans so I can't really pick it out, is it just a phrase at the top of that page as you go north and east of the building on the green area, is that,. those are written words, that is not a drawing of something, I can't see it from here. • Twitty: Those are written words. Mayor: Okay, then that duplicates what my drawing is, I saw it from here and I just wanted to make sure on that. Could you give me some information on this south property line. What is, how is the nature of the construction between the two walls. You have a wall at the base which we saw on that previous drawing which goes up as the ramp goes up. How high is that wall? As it starts out at the property line, the driveway? Twitty: Are you referring to this? Mayor: Yes, that's good. As that wall starts out, do you have any sense of_how or... Twitty: Basically, it would be represented by what we've shorn here. Mayor: Okay, that is within how many feet of the wall of Ambassadors East, do ~v u know? Colman; 12'. . Mayor: 12', and in that 12' area they have a wall of 4 or 5 feet, something like that. Twitty: Excuse me, who is they? 14 Mayor: Ambassadors East. Twitty: I do not recall how high that is. Mayor: Okay, between these two walls, what are we going to put, a walkway of some sort? Twitty: That is correct. It is an access for the building to the west. Colman: Excuse me, Ambassadors East wall is about 12'. Mayor: All the way, you're saying all the way out, okay, it starts back to, does it not, I recall, it's back of the property line, I was trying to get it lined up with your site adjacent to it, as it isn't shown, we're just trying to put the pieces together here. So, as you come across the street, the people, they're walking on a ,path, is that what it's going to be, is it concrete, is it stone or is it wood or is it elevated, or is is flat. Twitty: It is not elevated at this point, it will have to elevate . itself to get over the dune. The exact material at this point at this early age, at this :tags of the process has not been totally selected. Mayor: But it tends to have to go uphill as it goes up and over. When it gets to that swimming pool and that deck area, will it be as high as the deck? Twitty: I would envision that it would probably be 3' or so below the deck. Again, that is a final adjustment in doing the design or doing the working drawings. Mayor: So, if somebody was walking along it sort of it like walking along, right now there are no railings or anything shown to keep or the side wall of the deck or anything, these things have not been decided, th~~y're all still hanging. Twitty: Not in detail, but as far as the site plan approval process, I don't see where that would really effect what we're doing from a site plan standpoint. That would b e a safety factor that would be addressed when we get to that level of detail. Mayor: That's part of my objection to not seeing this, I think it is very much a safety factor as it comes across here. Also, I think it needs to be very clear to everybody since there is a wall of the Ambassadors East on this site to know what that space is and how it functions and how wide things are. That is not shown and it is up to you to show it or not show it as you so choose. Is there anything as you come around on ' 15 • that east side, any fence or thing to keep the people from walk- ing down over the dune. Twitty: There will be a dune crossover which number one has to be designed in accordance with basic criteria of the state and naturally it will have step down tiering to the basic beach elevation and will have handrails and other safety... Mayor: I'm speaking of the deck itself as you go across to the front of that building. Yes, if you were to go from there and go north. Anything along there. Twitty: Well this will have probably a 3' high wall for wind pro- tection and s o forth . Mayor: Will it go all the way through to th~horth line? Or are there any breaks in this wall as a result of the design element on the first floor. Twitty; Wheth er there will be visual breaks again, will be a part of the aesthetic design.. Mayor: Okay, are those panel glass on the first floor elevation, are • they fixed. Twitty: Let me go to the full frame and we'll bok at that I'm assuming this is the level you're speaking of here. Mayor: If that's the deck, yes. Twitty: There will be areas of fixed glass and there will be areas of moveable glass. Mayor: Okay, if I can, because I don't want to take up Qverybody's time, on that line we were walking along there as we get to the building, right, in that area as you come up there, is that fixed glass or is that moving glass, not that piece, go up further, not that, the north line, on the east line, right, those two places, what kind of treatment is in there. Twitty: I would guess it's going to be fixed glass, becuase we would not have people coming out. They will probably have moveable panels in those areas that front on to th~8eck areas. Colman: We don't make provision for anybody going out onto the dune. • Mayor: Well, as I say, maybe there are things that you've thought about but not made a decision on and I'm .just trying to explore how things are going to be along this area because 16 • there is alot of... Twitty: Provision would primarily be onto the deck areas. Blosser: And at what elevation from the ground is that deck area. Colman: The ground meets at level 18 Mrs. Blosser.. Twitty: That deck area is represented at 10'6" above the basement level which is approximately 8'. ... . Blosser: So ~,~~ ,:~=~` level below it, and dQ:ar t}ae~nt r _, .. 2vQ1 exteric`'~'beyori@~`"`tih~ peg-i~ieter of the tower ..itself: Twitty: Yes it does, as represented... Blosser.: Alright, what is the set~baa~-fae~ t extension on -the south and on the north, because it czrn't ~aa~,r 50' Colman: That information was made very clear. Blosser: As I understand it,-.it's 18' pn the north and, 12 on the south. Calman: Excuse me, it's 12' on the sa~rth°ar~d~ 17`. ~~ he north. Blosser: Thank you, that ans~red ~y question. Mayor: Thank you, I just have a couple comments with regards to the landscaping, I know you've been v~ai.ting for me, I can tell. The ones, the plantings with regard to the re-located black olives, I don't know which ones you are going to have to go in there, this may be something we can talk about at some other time if you want to show me which ones they're going to be, if you have some indication. I'm talking now I'm going to start on the south property line because that's the easiest way. I would not think that you could put calliphillums in th ere, it's a wind tunnel, from our exper- ience in Town, calliphillums cannot handy that kind of stress. The mimeosaps, the three mimeosaps in this area I vatld have some, I would like to see some evidence in this Town of any mimeosaps having made it. I am fairly familiar with them, they're thibk leaved and I wish they would make it. The same type of design is on the north property lin e • and I would raise the same objections in the same place. The black olives which are so indicated are going to be, I think the wind tunnel is probably going to have a very pro- found effect on them unfortunately on this site. It shows r 17 a couple of re-located calliphillum in front of the building. I would like to know which two those are and wh ere :.they come from. That is the sum and substance of it. Brown: The rP-located black olives come from the site on the west. Mayor: I know, but I ~ u1d like to know which one it is, I have taken pictures of every tree so you can, yes, if you can supply to me in the interim, which ones you think they are that are going to go there, just so we make sure they arP not the same 8 that you already said were going to stay in place on the other side. Brown: We have indicated caliper trunks on these, they would reference back to the caliper trunk size on the other side. Mayor: You don't have to tell me now, I or you can supply this through Mike and he can put it in Town Hall and we can know exactly what tree it is, it is not a... Redd: In your experience with the mimeosaps, not had them doing well here. • Mayor: We have not had any on the dune or any, especially xg you have some up on that deck area. I wish th ey would, I have no objection to th~kree, I think it's very satisfactory,. we have not been able to get any to take that kind of ex- posure and that's the problem. If I had seen some that would grow, that would be fine with me, but to my knowledge right now, with the wind and the salt unfortunately you can go any number of places and see, and I hate to see nice trees put in and watch them die, I mean, that's as simple as it is. Redd: You know there is never going to be, of yes I wish I could say it will work and say it works here or works there. I was just yesterday up in Palm Beach and there were some seagrapes there which is as tough a tree other than seaoats is the toughest tree that I know of, and I've only been in practice here for 20 years, but they were burnt beyond recog- nition. They'll come back, you just have to go through those cycles. To some people, that is part of the natural cycle of the salt air and so forth. We've had some luck with mimeosaps, and I'm glad you like it, I like it too, it's one of my favorite trees in the world. I think based on just north of here, and I can't recall the project, we put some • on the deck up there, same condition, they suffered some initial damage and they've come back and acclamated fairly well so we agonize ourselves over a salt tolerant list as much as anyone. 5omeof it perhaps, I have no doubts that we 18 • may get something that's going to burn back and have to be replaced but I guess we have to take a little fashion risk here, if you will. Mayor: We11, in this case, you have six of these trees and T would certainly know that the calliphillum would never make it in there. calliphillum hardly, in this Town in our tree planting program, you go look at our calliphillums, just drive down the tell what they've been exposed to just by looking at tluem. You can go there to the Ambassadors South building and look at the calliphillum and it's all for dead. I hope to goodness it isn't, but you just go look there and because of the winds, and it is somewhat protected by the garage wall of Ambassadors East, but unfortunately, Royal Highlands is a wide open windy place and its expensive to us to replace these trees and that's my concern there. street and you can tell which ones can take it and you can Brown: May I ask you a question, you seem to be very familiar with the Town and the increased wind tunnel effect that you have. in certain isolated areas, do you have any suggestions of trees that you have found that can be successful in these wind tunnel situations. • Mayor; That unfortunately is very limited and that is one of the sad aspects of it because we keep trying thin gs. The first place I discovered was at Ocean Pines where one of the landscapers introduced us to naronias and unfortunately we ended up re- placing many of our street trees with nahronias because of the high, we've tried to use black olives, we've tried to use live oak, we've tried to use mimeosaps, we've tried to use so many different types of trees and you can almost tell on our street program. There would be a possibility certainly of palms in here, it doesn't look like a Japanese garden, I understand that, but Ocean Pines is a good place to go look, see what they have and you can tell it's been th ere a long time and see what the effect is. It's one of the ones that did have these kinds of trees. I happen to have a buttonwood on the beach way down on the dune, it's beautiful, everybody else has dead ones, I can't account for it. I would like for you to have flexibility, but I would like for you, for everybody's sake look at what grows in some of the places and I think it's somewhat evident... Redd: We do have I think silver buttonwoods or green... • Mayor: You have both on the other side. Colman: We have silver buttonwoods at Villa Nova and they are surviving... 19 . .- Mayor: Well mine is surviving and I have a rather large tree, but as I said that's my comments, and like I said, I don't like to see the trees die, I hate t o see lovely things just brought in here and then just watch them die. The other thing, and I was ve ry interested in when yousaid this, Mr. Reid... Redd: Redd like the color... Mayor: Oh, I'm sorry, Red like the color, is it R-E-D. Redd: Redd, like Redd Foxx. Mayor: Very good, you said you were able to get material from a similar microclimate nursery. Redd: No, microclimate, being that it's already, it's growing right across the road. The microclimate is already established, probably a good example is your silver buttonwood that grows and maybe $ 100' away someone else's doesn't or half a mile away or whatever so the more.... Mayor: I understand what yu're saying now, it's the material on the site, it's not coming from... Redd: That's the best bet. Mayor: I understand certainly it would be if you could find a nursery along AlA, that would be your best bet, thank you, I was concerned about that. I would like to ask two more things and they kind of come under your landscaping, one, where is your entrance sign and address going to go. Has that been planned or put in. Also your backflow device and fire construction. Twitty: We designated it to be in this general area where the utility lines are coming in and certainly we want to... Mayor: How are you going to screen it? Twitty: Landscaping. Certainly I intend to. Mayor: Have you seen the one in Town at Highlands Place? Have you seen exactly what that structure looks like. Twitty: No, I haven't seen, no I don't recall seeing that particular one.. . .~ Mayor: Colman: • 20 We11, I suggest that somebody goes and looks at it. I have seen it and in no way would we build anything like it. Mayor: Well, I think, as I said, I'm bringing it up now because I too do not want to look at other ones like that, but I'm not-too sure that you have options to not build one of somewhat of a similar dimension simply because I've been trying to look into it. Colman: That's the difference between good architecture and ordinary. Mayor: Well, that's why I want to address that, if you could give us some indication as to how this is going to be because T would like to know where it's going to be and how it's going to be screened, cause this having-been shown to us at Highlands Place and it's a very difficult thing to try to hide after you get it so whatever we can do on that one. Now, I don't want to overlook water, because after all, water is something we, and certainly I have concerns about the pond and the lake, the water fountain requirements, the statistical evidence that you submitted with regard to theuseage and they are all of the same comments I made with regard to the other side, and we're concerned about the fact of the figures that are going to be for the personal useage are not high enough. South Florida Water will be addressing that. Is there any other questions anybody has at this time. What is .the pleasure of the Commission at this time with regard to this. Do you want it on the agenda for next Tuesday? Blosser: You are waiting for information from South Florida? Mayor: I will ask them. Basso: Do you have all the information. If you get it in, bring it on Tuesday. Mayor: What I'm asking you is do you want to agenda this for Tuesday. Venzer: Might I suggest that we start dealing with some of these questions right now so that we can get as many of them out of the way as we possibly can? Colman: Isn't this what we're here for Mayor, not just to raise the questions, but to deal with them, After all this is ' ~ ~ 21 • now our fourteenth meeting with the various boards. Mayor: Are you going to move the building? Colman: Pardon? Mayor: Are you going to move the building anyplace? a t' Colman: I don't see where we can move it. Ma or• Y Oka we ~'m 'ust tr in to go down them. Y. J Y g Colman: We had a discussion on the question of the setbacks and '` r that seems to be a major problem here. I've dealt with, that matter and I'd like to hear fr an your attorney as to what his opinion is on this subject, as a matter of fact, I'm even beginning to wonder whether the code its+~lf, your particular one where you made the change was a val,~d r one, but it isn't the major question right now because.iiue don't, we are not involved in that particular question ~t a 11. We are set back 50' and I have not heard a legit~9nate argument that would suggest otherwise. • Blosser: You have no part of your building... Colman; r We are talking about, we are talking about the building? from the ground up and if you' 11 look at your code boo]#~r it refers to the word structure and it talks about a structure abeing fran the ground. It mentions the word ground thrice or four times in that particular definition of the word':`; structure and therefore what we are talking about, whicl4 is different from the west side incidentally because on the west side the ground is determined by the level of the crown of the road and that's where we're coming frcnn', on the west side but on the east side the situation is entirely different. Mayor: Would you cite that section of the code to us which gives us the ground of the road being only measured at the dune line and not at the road, if you have something to support..:.., this position. Colman: There are two sections here, one that deals with building'.. ~;~',+ height and it says that the vertical distance is measured , from the natural grade of the dune and then we're talking • about on the east side of AlA, and then there's another section where we're dealing with this matter of setbacks and they use the word ground and talks about structures 22 i and it deals with, dealing with the word structure, there's a definition for the word structure which appears on page 57 which says... Mayor; Excuse me, so that every commissioner can look if they choose. Colman: The word structure, and that's in quotations includes the word building, as well ass~~~i~~ings constructed or erected{; on the ground, attached to aving location on the ground, or requring construction or erection on the ground. Our ground `_. is the natural grade of the dune. The area below it is the ba~e- ment, and the fact of the matter is, and let's just think of this in a practical way. You've got a building to the south of us, that's Ambassadors East. They have, and this applies to almost every single building that's built on the east side , it applies to Villa Magna, to Villa Nova, I'll give you an example with Villa Nova. At Villa Nova, we got out. permit , approved by the Planning Board and the .Town Commission in which we have a basement which is 5' away from the lot line because the ground was considered the level of the dune and what we had below it was basement and the basement did not apply to the particular part of the code that you are referri;tlg to, and we had that there, we had it in other places, they have it over at Highlands Place and it has nothing to do with the time in which these permits were issued. They were all issued, and they were issued after I understood, careful examination and we appeared at several meetings before the Planning Board and we appeared before the Town Commission and there was never a question raised and suddenly there's all sorts of questions being raised in this area and I don't ~, understand it. We are set back 50' ladies and gentlemen. That's our position and I have not heard anybody legitimately challenge that position. Blosser: Excuseme, 2 was not clear as to whether you said Villa Magna or Villa Nova. Colman: Villa Nova. Blosser: And that was an assumed permit you picked up on preconditions as I remember. Colman: Sorry, we had to conform to certain regulations.. • Blosser: I'm agreeing with you, I'm saying that it didn't come before us, you picked up .the footprint of the building that was at that time and improved it as far as my knowledge goes with fewer dwelling units and lower density. ~ - r ~ 23 Colman: No, not at all, the same number of dwelling units. Blosser: Well, the footprint was the same. Colman: The footprint was the same, yes. Blosser: So it was pre-approved. Colman: Sorry, it had nothing to do with the size of our pa rking facility. Venzer: Mayor, maybe we can, if there is a difference of opinion which I'm not sure what the difference is, maybe the town attorney can tell us. Mayor: I will, from:; that point t~f uiew.. Vie. v~~»l~l. lae~,s~~~re~x this week to seek this out on our behalf for our interpretatio~i that's why there were some of these issues, I don't thin] that .there's any way, there is work that he needs to do and I didn't see any point iz discussing those aspects a~%y further. We've read the code things and it's now up fox our legal interpretation to be submitted to us. It's npt a matter of anything that we can negotiate, because w~' • can't ~ae~pt~,ate_ thy- c~d~~.:<~_ . ..: ,. k` Colman: No, I understand, I understand, you know we did make serious concessions, and I want to make that point. We did make major, significant concessions on the east side prior to our meeting here. We made that a t the meetings of the Planning Board and I'm sure that you are familiar with it Mayor and I am assuming that some of the others are also familiar. This_ whole question about the wall and the extension of the wall and our attempt to get approval from the DNR and so forth, and we drafted a long document in which Mr. Friedman and our attorney here worked for an hour at thotneeting itself to make corrections suitable to the Planning Board and we did all that in spite of the fact that we made it very clear that our building would have no adverse affect on the neigh- boring prop erties and that was confirmed by a letter that we received from the Department of Natural Resources, but in spite of that, we were prepared to make all kinds of concessions, and we did and so when we talk about, you know, what have we done, we have made concessions that I didn't think were necessary from our point of view but the fact that it was raised and it seemed to be of concern to members of the Planning Board, one of whom lived in the building just adjacent to us. We were prepared to make those concessions and we did. Venzer: Mayor, is there anything else that we can address. s+'l • Mayor: 24 Not as far as the items that I have at this time. Does anybody else have anything? Colman: On the question of landscaping, I thing we can address some of the questions. Mayor: T think if Mike can bring in those answers and I think those can be answered during the week. Venzer: Is there anything else in landscaping that you would like to discuss or that you would like to have clarification of. Mayor: I'm sure that I'm going to hear "well we haven't decided what that is yet" since that's one of the problems on this thing, I find that it's difficult to ascertain some of these things. I'd rather try to get some legal opinion this week with regard to same of the zoning things and see if they can be resolved. Venzer: What beyond the setbaek.s are we talking in terms of. Mayor: All three items that we have entered into the rec ord. Venzer: Can you give me those. Blosser: Ba dony ~xt~n~iOns is one as I recall Mayor: The balcony set back, Chapter. ~7.,~ an.~ 5.14 is the other one. going to make sure the lot is not more than 5 0% cc~ve~ed ,by° :the.: ~~d ing . Venzer: Well it's not... Mayor: Well you are asking me and I'm just trying to tell you and listr all the things. Colman: We've stated it catagorically that it does not. Venzer: We just want to make sure that... Mayor: We wil],~heck it from the tape. Anybody else have any comments to make at this time. Basso: Well, let's just wait for a legal opinior~rom our attorney. Friedman: You want at ~. ~l~-ga'i~"~~ri'~tin on the s et back fore the balcony extensions... ..y.wfl '~ 25 Mayor: We will take it off the tape and give you the list in writing so that you can address it during the week as soon as possible. Any other things that the Commissioners would like t o have answered? Venzer: Mayor, I just want to make a point. We're talking about the meeting on March 1st is when we're going to be coming back? Mayor: We have not moved it to March 1st, that is what I tried to do until you decided that you wanted to sit and discuss it some more. Venzer: I apologize. Mayor: I was listening for any commissioner to make such a recommendation that it be put on the agenda if they were satisfied and ready to proceed. Basso: Well, I approve, as long as I get a legal opinion from our attorney, I~will suggest it as long as we hear from him and if we have it before our next meeting let's discuss it. Mayor: Is that a consensus, Mr. Scholz? Scholz: I agree. Blosser: If the material is on hand, fine. Mayor: Okay, then it will be on the agenda for the March Regular Meeting. And if you have any questions, you can call the Town Manager and get the tape, or the minutes or wh atever so you'll have some....okay, thank you, the next item..... Prepared: 2/24/88 MAM i